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Howdy 

I understood, by reading the manual, and watching several videos, that the CV/Gate expanders are fitted with an interesting new environment when a track is assigned to either of them.

So, did I miss something or can’t you access the expander CV/Trigger from the 1-6 native channel’s FX column without having to re engineer all the existing patterns?

I was hoping that I could just route my existing signals to them easily, and it seems that I will have to completely change my logic, which was awseome thanks to the existing environment.

Please tell me what you think about my perspective, and if in any way I am wrong.

Thanks
(03-04-2023, 10:44 AM)Renzki Wrote: [ -> ]Howdy 

I understood, by reading the manual, and watching several videos, that the CV/Gate expanders are fitted with an interesting new environment when a track is assigned to either of them.

So, did I miss something or can’t you access the expander CV/Trigger from the 1-6 native channel’s FX column without having to re engineer all the existing patterns?

I was hoping that I could just route my existing signals to them easily, and it seems that I will have to completely change my logic, which was awseome thanks to the existing environment.

Please tell me what you think about my perspective, and if in any way I am wrong.

Thanks
Sorry to say but indeed they are different in many ways. (And similar in other ways)

Just as the audio tracks or Midi tracks got dedicated functionality and optimized pattern columns, so do the CV16 and Trigger16 have.
Basically because you could never reach the new functions with only one column of notes or triggers.
And the CV expander is designed to generate notes, voltages and modulation while the trigger expander does triggers and gates.
You can always keep control of your local CV/Trigger outputs
within the expander tracks.
But sir, I thought I really could expand my existing patterns with those since they are called "expanders" :(((

That said, I do love the funtionalities that came with them, even though at the moment my drum machine is a Basimilus Iteritas Alter and you can indeed modelise the drum sounds via CV however it needs a signal from 10 CVs at the time to make a sound to trig up from the new drum matrix, it would be very hard for me to use it that way, but anyhow.

It would have been good to let us choose if we wanted to just expand the existing patterns to them if we wanted or to use a new environment, now I feel that I am forced to walk in a direction I was not expecting to head, if you know what I mean. Would it be hard to just allow the existing tracks to route to them?

I will give myself some more time to find something to do with them I suppose

Sorry for being a tough cookie :/
(03-05-2023, 06:26 PM)Renzki Wrote: [ -> ]But sir, I thought I really could expand my existing patterns with those since they are called "expanders" Sad((

That said, I do love the funtionalities that came with them, even though at the moment my drum machine is a Basimilus Iteritas Alter and you can indeed modelise the drum sounds via CV however it needs a signal from 10 CVs at the time to make a sound to trig up from the new drum matrix, it would be very hard for me to use it that way, but anyhow.

It would have been good to let us choose if we wanted to just expand the existing patterns to them if we wanted or to use a new environment, now I feel that I am forced to walk in a direction I was not expecting to head, if you know what I mean. Would it be hard to just allow the existing tracks to route to them?

I will give myself some more time to find something to do with them I suppose

Sorry for being a tough cookie :/

It's not that it is a secret how they work and what you get with them (and what you don't get).
The main thing is that this is not a Gigahertz computer with gigabytes of memory, so the patterns are limited to a selection of columns only. And that makes it impossible to just add more columns. Still everything you get and can do within a pattern of a track, doesn't matter which kind of pattern, is much more than even power users are using. And every expander (or Midi) pattern can do more than a regular pattern can do.
I also don't really see why it is a force into a direction. It is a quite normal thing, being a DAW or whatever that a track is dedicated or assigned to one instrument.
I do understand though that you might be disappointed if you expected something else. I still hope you can find your way with it anyways.
It's true, I could have documented myself BEFORE commiting. But as I said, since they are called expanders, I thought you could just assign any existing track to any output. As, for example, when I bought that 8 audio out expander card for my S2000 (it was at some point of the 20th century), I could all of a sudden route any of my existing programs to any output I fancied. And later on I bought the FX expander that was providing another pair of audio outputs, and here again, I could route any existing program to those 2 FX, and never had to use any new logic since the environement was the exact same :)
(No extra work, no head scratching, and if they had added more ways of creating programs that you could have implemented on top it would have been a bonus)

I must add that, the Akai S2000 had a rather simplistic chipset, no gigahertz there, it didn't even have any EPROM on it :)
(In the manual it said clearly that if you loose your boot floppy, you can use the sampler as a paper weight!!)

Would it be too much to have a sub menu on each track and to choose where we want them to go? (stupid question, me stupid, just a punk, you can shew me off!)
Quote:It's true, I could have documented myself BEFORE commiting. But as I said, since they are called expanders, I thought you could just assign any existing track to any output. As, for example, when I bought that 8 audio out expander card for my S2000 (it was at some point of the 20th century), I could all of a sudden route any of my existing programs to any output I fancied. And later on I bought the FX expander that was providing another pair of audio outputs, and here again, I could route any existing program to those 2 FX, and never had to use any new logic since the environement was the exact same Smile
(No extra work, no head scratching, and if they had added more ways of creating programs that you could have implemented on top it would have been a bonus)

I must add that, the Akai S2000 had a rather simplistic chipset, no gigahertz there, it didn't even have any EPROM on it Smile
(In the manual it said clearly that if you loose your boot floppy, you can use the sampler as a paper weight!!)

Would it be too much to have a sub menu on each track and to choose where we want them to go?

What would be the benefit of routing the note column or the trigger column to an expander when you can use the local ones?
How would you integrate all the additional functions in 1 note column and one trigger column, and the use of multiple outputs at the same time within one track?
Would you really want to miss out the drum-matrix with the trigger expander for example just to keep the same interface? Would you want just mono tracks for Midi to keep the interface? ...and so on...
Different gear got different settings and possibilities and that is also a fact with the other tracktypes or expanders. And that needs a different arrangement of the available columns to make the integration of these extra functionality possible or even available at all.
Is it the best way of integration? Maybe not, but there has been no better idea yet without keeping the possibilities in mind! 'Add more tracks' or 'Add more note columns' is not within the possibilities.

I don't have to get into the Akai comparison (well I usually don't compare with any other gear and if I would then I would probably have stopped adding new features and stuff some years ago and work on another project)...the Akai is designed to have these outputs already and is in fact a midi sequencer with additional hardware for sampling. (And got with it's basic configuration already way more memory).

Also, I couldn't think about any other name than 'expander'.

We could go on with this discussion and why things are like they are, but I'd rather spend the time in keeping the company running and hopefully find time in between to add new functionality.

Still I do understand your disappointment that things are not as you expected. I would like to make everyone happy but that is an impossible task.
(03-07-2023, 08:59 PM)Renzki Wrote: [ -> ]It's true, I could have documented myself BEFORE commiting. But as I said, since they are called expanders, I thought you could just assign any existing track to any output. As, for example, when I bought that 8 audio out expander card for my S2000 (it was at some point of the 20th century), I could all of a sudden route any of my existing programs to any output I fancied. And later on I bought the FX expander that was providing another pair of audio outputs, and here again, I could route any existing program to those 2 FX, and never had to use any new logic since the environement was the exact same Smile
(No extra work, no head scratching, and if they had added more ways of creating programs that you could have implemented on top it would have been a bonus)

I must add that, the Akai S2000 had a rather simplistic chipset, no gigahertz there, it didn't even have any EPROM on it Smile
(In the manual it said clearly that if you loose your boot floppy, you can use the sampler as a paper weight!!)

Would it be too much to have a sub menu on each track and to choose where we want them to go? (stupid question, me stupid, just a punk, you can shew me off!)

I would like to understand what your use case for this extended routability is.

What is it that you want to achieve with it that you can't with the current design?

Or are you basically frustrated that the different track types (corresponding to the different expanders) do not share the exact same pattern format so that patterns are not easily copyable between tracks of different types?
[the later is due to the tight memory constraints and probably not possible to change within the current HW]

Note that you can copy e.g. the note columns between patterns of different types.

Just curious,
Michael
@XORadmin

Quote:What would be the benefit of routing the note column or the trigger column to an expander when you can use the local ones?

On an audio tracker (Fasttracker) or a midi sequencer (Cubase), you can assign up to 16 modulation devices on the chain. In CV world, this actually means 16 CV outs since you can't dasy chain. So since we have only 6 tracks on Nerdseq, I thought it would have been interesting to increase the amount of CV outs per tack if you want to have several modulations happening. Example: The BIA has 9 CV ins and 1 Gate in. This means that I cannot even use the original CV outlets since we only have 2 available (considering the MOD as a CV) or the CV expander easily, since the expander can virtually increase the amount of outlets beyond 6 (or 8, I can't remember).

Therefore I am stuck with the only 2 modulations per track. I can live with it, but what a job to program it all up, there is not pre programmed patterns or patches that I can download to deal with that fast. Also, If I want to control all the parameters of the BIA, it will hog the sequencer fast.

Quote:Would you really want to miss out the drum-matrix with the trigger expander for example just to keep the same interface? Would you want just mono tracks for Midi to keep the interface?

Hell no! I love this environment and plannig to create with it. This environment could be called in on the menu right? Like: Track Assign / Environment /  "Basic" or "Drum Matrix"

If there was a box on the pattern (bottom right corner with the probs or even better one per step) where you can actually choose (other than FX) which CV (or/and TRIG) out you want, let's say, the 1 or 2 local ones and 6 or what not, on the expander, then I could finally have more than 2 modulations getting out of my Nerdseq and my BIA would do it's thing without having to use the Mimetic digitalis. Eg: if I want to record the CV pattern MD is generating on Nerdseq and record a track later.

Quote:Different gear got different settings and possibilities and that is also a fact with the other tracktypes or expanders. And that needs a different arrangement of the available columns to make the integration of these extra functionality possible or even available at all. Is it the best way of integration? Maybe not, but there has been no better idea yet without keeping the possibilities in mind! 'Add more tracks' or 'Add more note columns' is not within the possibilities.

As I said, if you can't, you can't, no big deal bro! I'm not going to die of frustration, otherwise I would not even be hear to bugger you around if you know where I'm comming from. (women nearly killed me with that and gess what, I'm still here on my feet, healthy as a young baboon)

Quote:Still I do understand your disappointment that things are not as you expected. I would like to make everyone happy but that is an impossible task.

It's not possible perhaps, since some people would ask you to work on little things (ratchets, those, I think, can be written in a table), that are, don't get me wrong, truely interesting, when others have some more important features to suggest, however, it's your call to choose where I stand. 

@mgd

Thanks for your participation, I hope my answers to XORadmin have answered your questions. Let me know if you still don't unsderstand why I would like to have the Nerdseq to be able to route control signals on more than 2 outputs.
Quote:On an audio tracker (Fasttracker) or a midi sequencer (Cubase), you can assign up to 16 modulation devices on the chain. In CV world, this actually means 16 CV outs since you can't dasy chain. So since we have only 6 tracks on Nerdseq, I thought it would have been interesting to increase the amount of CV outs per tack if you want to have several modulations happening. Example: The BIA has 9 CV ins and 1 Gate in. This means that I cannot even use the original CV outlets since we only have 2 available (considering the MOD as a CV) or the CV expander easily, since the expander can virtually increase the amount of outlets beyond 6 (or 8, I can't remember).

Therefore I am stuck with the only 2 modulations per track. I can live with it, but what a job to program it all up, there is not pre programmed patterns or patches that I can download to deal with that fast. Also, If I want to control all the parameters of the BIA, it will hog the sequencer fast.

Fasttracker = up to 32 single tracks within 1 pattern. One note with volume and one effect per track. Plus that these you name run on PC with at least megabytes of memory.

You are not stuck with 2 modulations per track with the NerdSEQ. In fact you could modulate all 12 local outputs + all 12 Triggers at any time from one track only ( and keep the other 7 tracks for whatever) using the more advanced features.

With the CV Expander you can control 1 BIA completely from only 1 Track (if that makes sense anyways, but that is a different discussion). In the most basic way 6 CV outputs from the columns + 3 CV outputs from the FX or like all 16 at the same time from patches, combinations of it, independent running modulations etc...
You can import and export single patterns.
Also here...do with the other 7 Tracks what you want or maybe even control this one CV16 expander from all 8 tracks. Easily possible with the NerdSEQ.
I don't have to mention that this is all impossible with everything out there which is not a computer.

Quote:This environment could be called in on the menu right? Like: Track Assign / Environment /  "Basic" or "Drum Matrix"

No...there is too much specific stuff here which requires a totally different memory layout, assignment, not applicable settings per track type to mix them all around.

Quote:It's not possible perhaps, since some people would ask you to work on little things (ratchets, those, I think, can be written in a table), that are, don't get me wrong, truely interesting, when others have some more important features to suggest, however, it's your call to choose where I stand. 

I think the importance is up to the user and probably the amount of requests gives a basic view of the importance of several features. But as I mentioned many times already, this is not a PC with loads of ressources. If something is not possible then it is not possible. I do check every single request and do check as well the possibility of them. I am always open about things I will and won't do or things I can or can't do. 
Give me some Megabytes of Ram and I add you columns for 100 outputs at the same time per track (and I would have already).

For me this is getting a very time consuming (yes that time that I don't have) topic now and I think it won't bring any solution.
(03-10-2023, 07:53 AM)Renzki Wrote: [ -> ][answers snipped]

@mgd

Thanks for your participation, I hope my answers to XORadmin have answered your questions. Let me know if you still don't unsderstand why I would like to have the Nerdseq to be able to route control signals on more than 2 outputs.

Yes, thank you. I think I have a better understanding now.

Thomas already commented so some of what I wish to add will be a doublicate Smile

I think you have not yet looked into the finer points as to how you can use the "only" 6 tracks (8 tracks to be precise as the audio tracks could function as CV16, Trigger16 or MIDI tracks as well).
FWIW each CV16 track gets 6 columns (I like to call them lanes) where you can send out *anything* out of the allocated 6 outs of the corresponding CV16. You also have 3 FX columns which allows for a total of 9 CV values/value changes sent out PER STEP. When you have slower moving/changing stuff/CVs you can use the FX columns to change even more CVs.

I have a project where I have 10 Note CVs and for each Note CV there is another CV on Envelope duty and yet another CV on overall volume (mixer control so to speak) duty. That's 30 CV that could change every step. For this I'm using 4 of the 8 available NerdSEQ tracks - 1/2 NerdSEQ if you wish to see it that way.

Those 4 tracks aren't fully utilized. I could have added another 2 Note CVs (plus modulation as above) aka another 6 CV - that space is unused. There's also plenty of "modulation headroom" left as I did not use most of the buildin LFOs of the CV16 expander and I tried not to use other CV outs (which would have been possible through the available FX).

What I want to say is that there may be a way to achieve what you are after by a different approach.
I'm happy to elaborate a bit more on how you can get more note and modulation CV from just a few tracks. Just ask Smile

There are things where I wish the NerdSEQ would do stuff differently. Lack of note and modulation CV IMO is not among them Smile
In my opinion there's no other sequencer in Eurorack that's even close to this.

DAWs are a different story and IMO an invalid comparison.
Some newer external sequencer start to come closer to what the NerdSEQ can do. W/r to note and modulation CV count I have not yet seen one that provides more.

Kind regards,
Michael
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