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How to randomly transpose two patterns the same way?
#1
Hi forum,

I have a project with two patterns playing. Now I want to randomly transpose these patterns, however they shall be transposed the same way. Is that possible? I did not find a way to do it, but maybe there is a clever trick Smile

If it is not possible:
Would that be a feature others might want too?


Kind regards,
Michael
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#2
Maybe use the external transposition through midi or the cv input and set all but these 2 tracks to be not allowed for transposition. Sequence this then from any track.
PLEASE use the search function if something have been asked or discussed before.
Every (unnessesary) forum support means less time to develop! But of course, i am here to help!  Smile
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#3
That got me searching the manual again...what I found is in the Section "Recording / Live Input / Midi Input" starting on page 102 the "Transpose All" item (page 103 for CV and 106 for MIDI). Is that what you are referring to?

I have ignored Live Input so far but now reading through it it appears there are some clever things you could do with it Smile

Did I mention that I like the NerdSEQ? Big Grin

Kind regards,
Michael
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#4
If it helps: I’ve had this working nicely for a while now, with the only catches being that a) transposition values are only picked up upon new notes, and b) there are therefore also some timing sensitivities to account for. There’s a thread in the forum discussing these.
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#5
Thank you mvdirty, I'll check out that thread.

Meanwhile I've started playing with it and I'm stumbling over a couple of other things here. I've attached my project to this post but here is a short description as to what I'm trying to do:
  • Tracks 7 & 8 are allocated to my NSA1 (CV16) and play a couple of patterns
  • Tracks 1-6 are set to Modular and on Track 6 I have the Transposition Table as well as some Probability Functions to jump between the 3 pattern islands (starting on rows 02, 05 and 08 respectively). Track 6 plays a C-5 (0V; set to -5/+5) and CV6 is patched into Input 4
  • Pattern 0E on Track 6 has a transposition table that randomly choses a note from the c Minor Scale +/- 1 Octave (+/- 0C==12 semitones). Type is set to >ONCE (tried >RESYNC and >LOOP w/o any change)
  • In the Live/Record Setup I've configured Input 4 Live to TRANSPOSE ALL.
  • In Track Setup for the various Tracks I set 1-6 to TRANSPOSE AVOID and 7&8 to ALLOW
FWIW my setup is such that C-7 is middle C. All note values in the pattern are set accordingly. All note outputs are switched to -5/+5.

Now I move the Cursor into row 02 and hit SHIFT START (row 00 is for tuning my VCOs and play A-7 which in my setup should be 440 Hz). This is what happens:
  • The screen shows that Track 6 is playing C-5. I do measure 0V. When I switch from -5/+5 to 0/+10 I measure +5V.
  • In the Nerd Menu all my tracks including 1-6 have TRK Transpose set to -3c/-3b/-39 (or similar) and I can't change that via SHIFT + CURSOR UP/DOWN/LEFT/RIGHT (nothing happens; may be intended)
  • consequently all notes are way too low. When I switch Transpose to AVOID in the Track Setup of Tracks 7&8 all pitches are as expected but of course I can't transpose.
  • My Pattern switching logic works as intended
What am I overlooking?

As a side note:
In the Live/Record Setup I can only select Transpose T1 but not T2...T8. Similar for pass to CV1 (no CV2...CV4) and Quantize to CV1 (no CV2...CV4). This is independent of the track I'm on. Is that intended and how would I get hold of the other values?


If all of the above problems are dealt with in the thread mvdirty mentioned in his post I apologize for the noise - I have not yet looked at it. I'll do it after I've sent this post (or probably tomorrow since it is getting late...).

Kind regards,
Michael
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#6
Quite complex to read after a beer on saturday evenings :-)
But as a information,
You’d need 5 volt on the input to have zero transposition. Higher transposes higher
and lower then 5 volt transposes lower. Inputs got to be calibrated well of course.

Also transpose to: use shift cursor up/down to choose which track to transpose.
PLEASE use the search function if something have been asked or discussed before.
Every (unnessesary) forum support means less time to develop! But of course, i am here to help!  Smile
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#7
(05-01-2021, 10:26 PM)XORadmin Wrote: Quite complex to read after a beer on saturday evenings :-)

It also took me some time to properly write it up... Wink

(05-01-2021, 10:26 PM)XORadmin Wrote: But as a information,
You’d need 5 volt on the input to have zero transposition. Higher transposes higher
and lower then 5 volt transposes lower. Inputs got to be calibrated well of course.

Well, I thought I had very carefully read in the manual that it is around 0V but upon rereading that's clearly not what is there though I see why I misunderstood it in the first place. Smile

(05-01-2021, 10:26 PM)XORadmin Wrote: Also transpose to: use shift cursor up/down to choose which track to transpose.

Aaahhh...found it.


So flipping the switch and thus changing my output from -5/+5 to 0/+10 solves the pitch problem. After some more tinkering with the transposing track and the corresponding table I now have it basically working.

However I could not get it to work with SOURCE set to INT. Tick regardless of the TYPE. Only after I switched SOURCE to PTN-SFX and inserted SPFX 011 into my transposing track it seems to do what I want.

I have not yet fully understood the reason and it may very well be the timing mentioned in that other thread (just read it once and I guess I have to revisit it).

Anyway, I'm making progress.

Have a nice sunday,
Michael
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#8
(05-02-2021, 07:42 AM)mgd Wrote: I have not yet fully understood the reason and it may very well be the timing mentioned in that other thread (just read it once and I guess I have to revisit it).

To summarize the most relevant bits: You’d be tempted to output a transposition value from one track on the same tick as you’d expect another track to be transposed by it, but between things like physics, software engineering, etc. the transposition voltage won’t be seen and processed until just afterward. As such, you may need to transpose a little earlier. This can be a little annoying/challenging if wanting to transpose at the start of a pattern, for example.

(05-02-2021, 07:42 AM)mgd Wrote: Anyway, I'm making progress.

Excellent!
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#9
(05-02-2021, 06:38 PM)mvdirty Wrote:
(05-02-2021, 07:42 AM)mgd Wrote: I have not yet fully understood the reason and it may very well be the timing mentioned in that other thread (just read it once and I guess I have to revisit it).

To summarize the most relevant bits: You’d be tempted to output a transposition value from one track on the same tick as you’d expect another track to be transposed by it, but between things like physics, software engineering, etc. the transposition voltage won’t be seen and processed until just afterward. As such, you may need to transpose a little earlier. This can be a little annoying/challenging if wanting to transpose at the start of a pattern, for example.

(05-02-2021, 07:42 AM)mgd Wrote: Anyway, I'm making progress.

Excellent!
Yep. Thats exactly what happens. The playback is happening in one go for all 8 tracks, but CV inputs is read in another process after (or before) that.
PLEASE use the search function if something have been asked or discussed before.
Every (unnessesary) forum support means less time to develop! But of course, i am here to help!  Smile
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#10
(05-02-2021, 06:56 PM)XORadmin Wrote: mvdirty
(05-02-2021, 07:42 AM)mgd Wrote: I have not yet fully understood the reason and it may very well be the timing mentioned in that other thread (just read it once and I guess I have to revisit it).

To summarize the most relevant bits: You’d be tempted to output a transposition value from one track on the same tick as you’d expect another track to be transposed by it, but between things like physics, software engineering, etc. the transposition voltage won’t be seen and processed until just afterward. As such, you may need to transpose a little earlier. This can be a little annoying/challenging if wanting to transpose at the start of a pattern, for example.

I see that and kind of expected that as well. However in this particular case it is exactly what I want, namely play the pattern "as is" and then start the variations.

My lack of understanding is or was more related to the timing of how long a given transposition is "active" and after some thinking I guess I now have a slightly better understanding than when I wrote the above lines.

My takeaway is for transposing whole (blocks of) patterns the only viable timing involves setting table SOURCE to PTN-SFX and advancing the table via SPFX 011. All other options won't work w/o very carefully crafting a fragile timing that will break at the next opportunity.

(05-02-2021, 06:56 PM)XORadmin Wrote: Yep. Thats exactly what happens. The playback is happening in one go for all 8 tracks, but CV inputs is read in another process after (or before) that.

Is it feasible to add something like an "operator precedence section" to the manual (on the long run)?
The idea is to know which functions/processes happen when and in which order so that the user is able to derive such tricky timing dependencies.

Kind regards,
Michael
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