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Groove mechanics
#1
Hello, 

First of all thanks for this wonderful sequencer, just getting into it and already in love Smile

I can't find much documentation about how the groove works. The manual says :

Quote:Groove changes the amount of substeps per pattern step. 6 is a normal and preset value
but finer resolutions can be generated by higher values. Also a shuffle/groove effect can be
created by changing the groove in a interval eg. 5/7/5/7/5/6. Also you can let the different
patterns run away from each other by using different groove settings.

Could someone explain to me what it exactly does to the notes/triggers ? 
For example what 6 substeps means exactly rythmicly speaking ? 

Quote:
Human_Machine_Connection Wrote: Wrote:hi all
Can’t figure out how to set patterns groove to get triplets grid 
Any ideas? 
Want it to make psytrance style bass uuuh
Thanks

Yeah got it
Groove values must set all to 4, last step of pattern must be 47 to ensure perfect sync 
Perfect triplets


I also found this explaination for a triplet example, why should it end by 47 to ensure perfect sync ?

I would like to be able to recreate subtles and strong grooves like the different ones in the MPC for example.


Thanks Smile
Reply
#2
Have you heard the term pulse per quarter notes? Its basically number of pulses needed to play a quarter note.
For eurorack standart its 4ppqn for example. So each pulse is a 16th note, and MIDI standart is 24ppqn afaik. So you can play triplets and such over midi.
Nerdseq uses the same 24ppqn standart so to make each step equal to 16th notes you need 6 pulses for each step, ergo Groove column.
For example if you set groove 8 it will play as 16th triplet, or 9 to play 16th dotted.
You can also get wonky ryhtyms by changing groove value every step.
Reply
#3
(10-18-2019, 06:11 AM)swashplate Wrote: Have you heard the term pulse per quarter notes? Its basically number of pulses needed to play a quarter note.
For eurorack standart its 4ppqn for example. So each pulse is a 16th note, and MIDI standart is 24ppqn afaik. So you can play triplets and such over midi.
Nerdseq uses the same 24ppqn standart so to make each step equal to 16th notes you need 6 pulses for each step, ergo Groove column.
For example if you set groove 8 it will play as 16th triplet, or 9 to play 16th dotted.
You can also get wonky ryhtyms by changing groove value every step.

Hey Swash thanks for your answer. No I didn't hear about it but now I get it.
Is there any ressources that say exactly what number of pulses equals to what ?
Do you know why this interval "5/7/5/7/5/6" is ending by 6 in the manual example ?
I'd really like to understand the mechanics of the groove column
Thank you 
Reply
#4
(10-20-2019, 09:59 AM)nikizi Wrote:
(10-18-2019, 06:11 AM)swashplate Wrote: Have you heard the term pulse per quarter notes? Its basically number of pulses needed to play a quarter note.
For eurorack standart its 4ppqn for example. So each pulse is a 16th note, and MIDI standart is 24ppqn afaik. So you can play triplets and such over midi.
Nerdseq uses the same 24ppqn standart so to make each step equal to 16th notes you need 6 pulses for each step, ergo Groove column.
For example if you set groove 8 it will play as 16th triplet, or 9 to play 16th dotted.
You can also get wonky ryhtyms by changing groove value every step.

Hey Swash thanks for your answer. No I didn't hear about it but now I get it.
Is there any ressources that say exactly what number of pulses equals to what ?
Do you know why this interval "5/7/5/7/5/6" is ending by 6 in the manual example ?
I'd really like to understand the mechanics of the groove column
Thank you 

In the manual it stays at 5/7/5/7/5.  

In the basics, if you think about a 4 on the floor beat, where the bassdrum is on every 4th step, and you apply a 24ppqn clock, then it means that each step needs 6 ticks until it gets to the next step. And for 4 steps (where the beat is) it needed 24 ticks.
That means the internal clock of the NerdSEQ runs faster than just for each step. And the power is, that you can choose youself how many ticks are needed per step. You could get other timings and triplets with it (though, i think using the multipliers/dividers are probably better and easier than to use the grooves). And you can get odd timings as well which even can be so odd that tracks can run out of sync to each other.

For the 7/5/7/5/7/5 example just means one step needs 7 ticks and the next needs 5 ticks, which stays straight again like 6/6/6/6/6/6. But cause of the different step length, it gets this swing/groove effect because one note/beat starts just a bit earlier while the other just starts a bit later.
PLEASE use the search function if something have been asked or discussed before.
Every (unnessesary) forum support means less time to develop! But of course, i am here to help!  Smile
Reply
#5
(10-20-2019, 01:05 PM)XORadmin Wrote:
(10-20-2019, 09:59 AM)nikizi Wrote:
(10-18-2019, 06:11 AM)swashplate Wrote: Have you heard the term pulse per quarter notes? Its basically number of pulses needed to play a quarter note.
For eurorack standart its 4ppqn for example. So each pulse is a 16th note, and MIDI standart is 24ppqn afaik. So you can play triplets and such over midi.
Nerdseq uses the same 24ppqn standart so to make each step equal to 16th notes you need 6 pulses for each step, ergo Groove column.
For example if you set groove 8 it will play as 16th triplet, or 9 to play 16th dotted.
You can also get wonky ryhtyms by changing groove value every step.

Hey Swash thanks for your answer. No I didn't hear about it but now I get it.
Is there any ressources that say exactly what number of pulses equals to what ?
Do you know why this interval "5/7/5/7/5/6" is ending by 6 in the manual example ?
I'd really like to understand the mechanics of the groove column
Thank you 

In the manual it stays at 5/7/5/7/5.  

In the basics, if you think about a 4 on the floor beat, where the bassdrum is on every 4th step, and you apply a 24ppqn clock, then it means that each step needs 6 ticks until it gets to the next step. And for 4 steps (where the beat is) it needed 24 ticks.
That means the internal clock of the NerdSEQ runs faster than just for each step. And the power is, that you can choose youself how many ticks are needed per step. You could get other timings and triplets with it (though, i think using the multipliers/dividers are probably better and easier than to use the grooves). And you can get odd timings as well which even can be so odd that tracks can run out of sync to each other.

For the 7/5/7/5/7/5 example just means one step needs 7 ticks and the next needs 5 ticks, which stays straight again like 6/6/6/6/6/6. But cause of the different step length, it gets this swing/groove effect because one note/beat starts just a bit earlier while the other just starts a bit later.
Hey Admin, thanks for your answer
My bad the quote I refered to is not in the manual

I understand everything is a multiple of 4 by definition of the ppqn unit
Then how could I translate machine grooves (like the MPC) into the NerdSeq ? Is it possible to come close ?
If not possible via the groove column, would that be possible to record grooves via midi from Ableton ?
Also, I'm not sure I understood how it would be easier with mults/divs in my case

Thanks for your time !
Reply
#6
(10-20-2019, 01:27 PM)nikizi Wrote:
(10-20-2019, 01:05 PM)XORadmin Wrote:
(10-20-2019, 09:59 AM)nikizi Wrote:
(10-18-2019, 06:11 AM)swashplate Wrote: Have you heard the term pulse per quarter notes? Its basically number of pulses needed to play a quarter note.
For eurorack standart its 4ppqn for example. So each pulse is a 16th note, and MIDI standart is 24ppqn afaik. So you can play triplets and such over midi.
Nerdseq uses the same 24ppqn standart so to make each step equal to 16th notes you need 6 pulses for each step, ergo Groove column.
For example if you set groove 8 it will play as 16th triplet, or 9 to play 16th dotted.
You can also get wonky ryhtyms by changing groove value every step.

Hey Swash thanks for your answer. No I didn't hear about it but now I get it.
Is there any ressources that say exactly what number of pulses equals to what ?
Do you know why this interval "5/7/5/7/5/6" is ending by 6 in the manual example ?
I'd really like to understand the mechanics of the groove column
Thank you 

In the manual it stays at 5/7/5/7/5.  

In the basics, if you think about a 4 on the floor beat, where the bassdrum is on every 4th step, and you apply a 24ppqn clock, then it means that each step needs 6 ticks until it gets to the next step. And for 4 steps (where the beat is) it needed 24 ticks.
That means the internal clock of the NerdSEQ runs faster than just for each step. And the power is, that you can choose youself how many ticks are needed per step. You could get other timings and triplets with it (though, i think using the multipliers/dividers are probably better and easier than to use the grooves). And you can get odd timings as well which even can be so odd that tracks can run out of sync to each other.

For the 7/5/7/5/7/5 example just means one step needs 7 ticks and the next needs 5 ticks, which stays straight again like 6/6/6/6/6/6. But cause of the different step length, it gets this swing/groove effect because one note/beat starts just a bit earlier while the other just starts a bit later.
Hey Admin, thanks for your answer
My bad the quote I refered to is not in the manual

I understand everything is a multiple of 4 by definition of the ppqn unit
Then how could I translate machine grooves (like the MPC) into the NerdSeq ? Is it possible to come close ?
If not possible via the groove column, would that be possible to record grooves via midi from Ableton ?
Also, I'm not sure I understood how it would be easier with mults/divs in my case

Thanks for your time !

I don't know what machine grooves are? Is it even the same thing?
You can record into the steps through midi, so i don't think any groove information will be kept. It's not a CV or Midi recorder but mainly a step sequencer with step recoring functions.

As for basic shuffle or grooves, the NerdSEQ is very capable to do them, but on top of it much more as you can change each step individually and do stuff like, 4 steps shuffle, 8 steps straight, 2 steps fast, 2 steps slow etc...
PLEASE use the search function if something have been asked or discussed before.
Every (unnessesary) forum support means less time to develop! But of course, i am here to help!  Smile
Reply
#7
(10-20-2019, 01:50 PM)XORadmin Wrote:
(10-20-2019, 01:27 PM)nikizi Wrote:
(10-20-2019, 01:05 PM)XORadmin Wrote:
(10-20-2019, 09:59 AM)nikizi Wrote:
(10-18-2019, 06:11 AM)swashplate Wrote: Have you heard the term pulse per quarter notes? Its basically number of pulses needed to play a quarter note.
For eurorack standart its 4ppqn for example. So each pulse is a 16th note, and MIDI standart is 24ppqn afaik. So you can play triplets and such over midi.
Nerdseq uses the same 24ppqn standart so to make each step equal to 16th notes you need 6 pulses for each step, ergo Groove column.
For example if you set groove 8 it will play as 16th triplet, or 9 to play 16th dotted.
You can also get wonky ryhtyms by changing groove value every step.

Hey Swash thanks for your answer. No I didn't hear about it but now I get it.
Is there any ressources that say exactly what number of pulses equals to what ?
Do you know why this interval "5/7/5/7/5/6" is ending by 6 in the manual example ?
I'd really like to understand the mechanics of the groove column
Thank you 

In the manual it stays at 5/7/5/7/5.  

In the basics, if you think about a 4 on the floor beat, where the bassdrum is on every 4th step, and you apply a 24ppqn clock, then it means that each step needs 6 ticks until it gets to the next step. And for 4 steps (where the beat is) it needed 24 ticks.
That means the internal clock of the NerdSEQ runs faster than just for each step. And the power is, that you can choose youself how many ticks are needed per step. You could get other timings and triplets with it (though, i think using the multipliers/dividers are probably better and easier than to use the grooves). And you can get odd timings as well which even can be so odd that tracks can run out of sync to each other.

For the 7/5/7/5/7/5 example just means one step needs 7 ticks and the next needs 5 ticks, which stays straight again like 6/6/6/6/6/6. But cause of the different step length, it gets this swing/groove effect because one note/beat starts just a bit earlier while the other just starts a bit later.
Hey Admin, thanks for your answer
My bad the quote I refered to is not in the manual

I understand everything is a multiple of 4 by definition of the ppqn unit
Then how could I translate machine grooves (like the MPC) into the NerdSeq ? Is it possible to come close ?
If not possible via the groove column, would that be possible to record grooves via midi from Ableton ?
Also, I'm not sure I understood how it would be easier with mults/divs in my case

Thanks for your time !

I don't know what machine grooves are? Is it even the same thing?
You can record into the steps through midi, so i don't think any groove information will be kept. It's not a CV or Midi recorder but mainly a step sequencer with step recoring functions.

As for basic shuffle or grooves, the NerdSEQ is very capable to do them, but on top of it much more as you can change each step individually and do stuff like, 4 steps shuffle, 8 steps straight, 2 steps fast, 2 steps slow etc...

I think that most of the time it's a knob going from 16th which gradually increases the groove to 16th triplets
The groove can be very subtle, or more obvious when it gets close to triplets
I understand that the NerdSeq groove column is much more powerful than a random groove/swing knob as you can change each step individually, and create more complex, odd rythms
What would happen to the NerdSeq if it's sync to an external clock via his clock input, with already the groove in it ? I'm thinking about the Clocked Module from VCV Rack wich allows that. But I don't have the hardware (yet) to try.
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#8
(10-20-2019, 03:20 PM)nikizi Wrote: What would happen to the NerdSeq if it's sync to an external clock via his clock input, with already the groove in it ? I'm thinking about the Clocked Module from VCV Rack wich allows that. But I don't have the hardware (yet) to try.

Depending on what you use as clock input, it will already groove well as you expect. Best is of course using a 24ppqn clock. 1/16 clock (eg 1 clock/step) works as well, but since the nerdseq runs at a much higher speed internally, it makes more sense and gives in general a better quality when using 24ppqn clocks.
PLEASE use the search function if something have been asked or discussed before.
Every (unnessesary) forum support means less time to develop! But of course, i am here to help!  Smile
Reply
#9
(10-21-2019, 12:16 PM)XORadmin Wrote:
(10-20-2019, 03:20 PM)nikizi Wrote: What would happen to the NerdSeq if it's sync to an external clock via his clock input, with already the groove in it ? I'm thinking about the Clocked Module from VCV Rack wich allows that. But I don't have the hardware (yet) to try.

Depending on what you use as clock input, it will already groove well as you expect. Best is of course using a 24ppqn clock. 1/16 clock (eg 1 clock/step) works as well, but since the nerdseq runs at a much higher speed internally, it makes more sense and gives in general a better quality when using 24ppqn clocks.

Ok, that's great to hear.
As soon as I receive my audio interface with DC coupled outputs I will try to clock the NerdSeq via VCV Rack with the Clocked module.
Thanks for your time and this wonderful sequencer !
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#10
What about having groove presets to save time? 5/7/5/7/5/7 and 4/8/4/8/4/8 are pretty obvious but others could be useful too. Is shift + up/down in use in the groove column?
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