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Clocking alternatives
#1
I'm having trouble finding a good way to clock the Nerdseq in Bitwig using audio. My audio interface has no midi output and even if I could create some workaround by using a Keystep in between, it's not a good and lasting solution. I would love to see a setting for how Nerdseq interprets the incoming clock such as divisions and multiplications. Same goes for the clock and reset outputs. I have recorded the triggers from Nerdseq and  time stretched it to fit and it's a pain to work with.
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#2
(10-29-2019, 07:39 AM)Holon Mundi Wrote: I'm having trouble finding a good way to clock the Nerdseq in Bitwig using audio. My audio interface has no midi output and even if I could create some workaround by using a Keystep in between, it's not a good and lasting solution. I would love to see a setting for how Nerdseq interprets the incoming clock such as divisions and multiplications. Same goes for the clock and reset outputs. I have recorded the triggers from Nerdseq and  time stretched it to fit and it's a pain to work with.

I don't really understand what you mean. Audio is not a usable solution for clocking. Or to be more detailed, it is a bad solution for clocking.
At least pure audio that you get out of your soundcard.
It is
1: Bipolar, while the clock inputs are digital inputs.

2: Audio outputs are mostly AC coupled, and so no steady signals can be archieved. All triggers of a several length will be filtered out and the signal will end up as short pulses, not even in the good voltage, with a falling curve. Not how clock signals should look like. 

3: Noise in the audio signal can affect the quality.

I also don't know how multiplications or divisions should be involved here. Clock signals (where the NerdSEQ supports all standards for in and output) are used to synchronise multiple gear together. If you have a normal good Midi or 24ppqn or 1/16 clock source, the synchronising will be perfect. If not, then the source is the problem. And all timings and quality depends on may factors, once computers are involved. The factors are : The DAW you use, the operating system (and the current update level) you use, the Hardware you use (even the fastest computer can suck here), the audio/midi interface you use, all software that is running next to it and many more.
PLEASE use the search function if something have been asked or discussed before.
Every (unnessesary) forum support means less time to develop! But of course, i am here to help!  Smile
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#3
I regularly clock my modular using audio from my MPC live. I use one output for clock and another for reset.
Record a single click, normalise it so that the smaple is at the maximum amplitude and then make a short track that repeats and has the click on every step. If you want to go straight into the Nerdseq, then I think that you would need to have 24 clicks per quarter note.
Don't timestretch the sample, as that could introduce artefacts or reduce spikes at the leading edge of the pulse. I also have the MPC output set to maximum volume to make sure that it reaches/exceeds the voltage thresholds that the modular requres. Your clocking channels from Bitwig will most likely need to be set to full volume, but you can gradually turn them up to see when it starts working reliably..
AC coupled audio interfaces aren't an ideal solution for this, but I have always found that they do work for the short blips that are needed to clock a modular.
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#4
(10-29-2019, 08:49 AM)XORadmin Wrote:
(10-29-2019, 07:39 AM)Holon Mundi Wrote: I'm having trouble finding a good way to clock the Nerdseq in Bitwig using audio. My audio interface has no midi output and even if I could create some workaround by using a Keystep in between, it's not a good and lasting solution. I would love to see a setting for how Nerdseq interprets the incoming clock such as divisions and multiplications. Same goes for the clock and reset outputs. I have recorded the triggers from Nerdseq and  time stretched it to fit and it's a pain to work with.

I don't really understand what you mean. Audio is not a usable solution for clocking. Or to be more detailed, it is a bad solution for clocking.
At least pure audio that you get out of your soundcard.
It is
1: Bipolar, while the clock inputs are digital inputs.

2: Audio outputs are mostly AC coupled, and so no steady signals can be archieved. All triggers of a several length will be filtered out and the signal will end up as short pulses, not even in the good voltage, with a falling curve. Not how clock signals should look like. 

3: Noise in the audio signal can affect the quality.

I also don't know how multiplications or divisions should be involved here. Clock signals (where the NerdSEQ supports all standards for in and output) are used to synchronise multiple gear together. If you have a normal good Midi or 24ppqn or 1/16 clock source, the synchronising will be perfect. If not, then the source is the problem. And all timings and quality depends on may factors, once computers are involved. The factors are : The DAW you use, the operating system (and the current update level) you use, the Hardware you use (even the fastest computer can suck here), the audio/midi interface you use, all software that is running next to it and many more.

I dare oppose you since my experience is that audio is far more reliable using Bitwig and Ableton compared to midi. As I understand it the audio process has a higher priority since it needs to be real-time ti avoid clicks and it  gets updated more often than midi in the computer. Correct me if you can. In my case I use a beefy MSI PC with Win 10 and a minimally populated test project in Bitwig 3.

1. Do you still have the option to program the Nerdseq to recognize positive voltage clocks? If so then please do that. It will make a huge difference for a lot of users. 

2. I use a Motu 8M with DC coupled outputs. Most audio interfaces have DC-coupled headphone outputs so most nerds can use those without hassle.

3. Sure but isn't that a hypothetical problem? DAWs are known for extremely low noise floors and I clock nearly every other module in my system this way.

"If you have a normal good Midi or 24ppqn or 1/16 clock source, the synchronising will be perfect. If not, then the source is the problem."
I think your perspective might be a tad restrictive. If the device can't comply with the context it is made for (from a user perspective) the design is incomplete. Please read this in the right way, I'm still amazed by Nerdseq. Adding options that contribute to ease of use and flexibility is a very intelligent way to go since eurorack has so many possibilities and therefore has a greater number of outlier scenarios than a more homogeneous context (NES f ex, no modularity and perfect compatibility). We are a rowdy bunch with very different setups.

The usefulness of having multiplication options for clock in, out and reset seem self-explanatory to me. Using them you can  alter the role that Nerdseq occupies in a system and lets you use it in more links of a clocking chain. It's much better to make a module that fixes the idiosyncrasies of other modules that require this-or-that clock input/output or has some fixed gate length or whatever.

(10-29-2019, 01:32 PM)Marizu Wrote: I regularly clock my modular using audio from my MPC live. I use one output for clock and another for reset.
Record a single click, normalise it so that the smaple is at the maximum amplitude and then make a short track that repeats and has the click on every step. If you want to go straight into the Nerdseq, then I think that you would need to have 24 clicks per quarter note.
Don't timestretch the sample, as that could introduce artefacts or reduce spikes at the leading edge of the pulse. I also have the MPC output set to maximum volume to make sure that it reaches/exceeds the voltage thresholds that the modular requres. 

Thanks for the reply. I have done similar presets for other devices but it is messy and that could easily be avoided by adding a few options on the clock input. I did get artifacts at first but found settings that worked.

You are right about the volume in most cases. I recommend Motu Ultralight and 8M since they have 4.7V or 5V outputs that are DC-coupled. Another tip is Expert Sleepers ES-3 which goes to +-10V, is cheap 2nd hand but requires ADAT out from the interface.
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#5
(10-29-2019, 01:44 PM)Holon Mundi Wrote: I dare oppose you since my experience is that audio is far more reliable using Bitwig and Ableton compared to midi. As I understand it the audio process has a higher priority since it needs to be real-time ti avoid clicks and it  gets updated more often than midi in the computer. Correct me if you can. In my case I use a beefy MSI PC with Win 10 and a minimally populated test project in Bitwig 3.

1. Do you still have the option to program the Nerdseq to recognize positive voltage clocks? If so then please do that. It will make a huge difference for a lot of users. 

2. I use a Motu 8M with DC coupled outputs. Most audio interfaces have DC-coupled headphone outputs so most nerds can use those without hassle.

3. Sure but isn't that a hypothetical problem? DAWs are known for extremely low noise floors and I clock nearly every other module in my system this way.

"If you have a normal good Midi or 24ppqn or 1/16 clock source, the synchronising will be perfect. If not, then the source is the problem."
I think your perspective might be a tad restrictive. If the device can't comply with the context it is made for (from a user perspective) the design is incomplete. Please read this in the right way, I'm still amazed by Nerdseq. Adding options that contribute to ease of use and flexibility is a very intelligent way to go since eurorack has so many possibilities and therefore has a greater number of outlier scenarios than a more homogeneous context (NES f ex, no modularity and perfect compatibility). We are a rowdy bunch with very different setups.

The usefulness of having multiplication options for clock in, out and reset seem self-explanatory to me. Using them you can  alter the role that Nerdseq occupies in a system and lets you use it in more links of a clocking chain. It's much better to make a module that fixes the idiosyncrasies of other modules that require this-or-that clock input/output or has some fixed gate length or whatever.

Using audio to clock is only a workaround in the music world since the USB handling of non-realtime operating systems (and lower USB types anyway) is not good enough for stable clock production. As you didn't mention before what system you use, i assume a normal soundcard audio output. But even with DC coupled outputs, you got to produce the good voltages and clocks/resets/run for either DINsync/sync24 (best) or for 1/16 clock (2nd best because it needs to multiply the incoming clock which is always worse than the real clock).
The noise floor of the DAW is not interresting, more interresting is the noise of your computer/soundcard and these can indeed lower the signal quality.
I don't know how well your setup is, but if you are able to produce the valid signals following the specifications, then it should work perfect.

NerdSEQ has digital inputs and outputs and can detect 0 and 5 Volt levels (within the hysterisis) and it will run perfect if using the mentioned clocks or midi. 
The clock in and outputs included in the NerdSEQ are standards since decades and comply completely within the context Eurorack and beyond.
If these are not what you need, then you need to multiply or divide your signals yourself. In the world of eurorack this should be one of the more easy tasks. In the world of computers the same.

I don't agree that the design is incomplete if something is missing for a minor amount of users. There is and will always be anything that someone is missing. The key is in the importance / priority of functions for many users and I prefer to concentrate on functionality that can't be easy or not archieved externally. Clock dividing/multiplication for inputs or outputs is not an important feature on my list. It is interresting per track and that is implemented. It's still a sequencer and not a clock divider or any other tool even if you can do a lot of that stuff with it, too.
PLEASE use the search function if something have been asked or discussed before.
Every (unnessesary) forum support means less time to develop! But of course, i am here to help!  Smile
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