random modulation to envelopes

[Bleep bleep]

Hello, i just got my hands on a NerdSeq and its amazing!

Im playing with the fm sounds now and i cannot achieve what i want.

i want to modulate slightly the decay of envelope 1 randomly and not the other parameters of the envelope.

How would you proceed to do this?

Im trying now either with a table in first modular track or directly in the fx column
(of modular track as well because seems to be no random in audio tracks?)
but no success yet...

is it a way to define the range of the random command?
(i cherched in the manual for range and random but could find only for transpose range)

i would like to do something like this:

 fx1
 ------------
 env1  400
 rndm  001

but then the random to add only a value between 0 and A0 (to stay always in the decay range 400-4A0)

Possible?

(modulating envelope parameter from automators could be nice also, do you plan to add this? )

Anyway thank you Thomas for your work, its a really cool machine and im shure it will get better and better. 

Only negative point i see now is that the navigation and editing could be improved in some ways but thats another subject

cheers!

[XORadmin]

Actually use the random next value command doesn't really look into the kind of payload, so i think to only random the decay value is currently not possible.
But basically more advanced random commands are planned.

Modulating Envelopes from the automators is not planned. That would mean 8 times 6 settings which would end up in endless browsing of automator destinations.

But lets talk about the navigation and editing. I am curious about what could be better with the available buttons, screens and without weird key combinations. And arrive all most important screens where 95% of the work happens very immediately. Always open for good suggestions.

[Bleep bleep]

Actually use the random next value command doesn't really look into the kind of payload, so i think to only random the decay value is currently not possible.
But basically more advanced random commands are planned.

OK i see, its about how the random command is designed (and generally that the commands act like knobs, i understand the design choice but i think i would prefer them to be instant and go back to a steady value on next steps).
Also i just discover now the Nerdseq so i may need some time to get use to this and see the interest then.

Still it would be nice to have some ways of sligthly change the envelopes values over time, i use this a lot to get some more organic patterns quickly. (also i can see a big interest in fm synthesis with this).

Modulating Envelopes from the automators is not planned. That would mean 8 times 6 settings which would end up in endless browsing of automator destinations.

Yes i understand it would be too much, maybe then just for attack and decay of envelope 1 and 2?
(also this would open up a lot fm synthesis possibilities)

But lets talk about the navigation and editing. I am curious about what could be better with the available buttons, screens and without weird key combinations. And arrive all most important screens where 95% of the work happens very immediately. Always open for good suggestions.

Ok, many small improvements i can see here: 

First, i dont get why "ok" (or shift) wont insert a note by itself in the pattern screen on a empty step, basicaly it means we need a key combo every time we want to insert a note.

Then marking could be improved i think, for example if i want to mark the all screen (the first 16 steps) and copy paste on the next 16 steps:

-I mark
-i press right arrow until the last column of the screen. 
-i press "down" 
-But then i end up in the step 16 and the selection is now 17 steps long
-so i press up arrow to make the selection one step shorter 
-i copy, but then it end up being the step 15 on top of the screen
-so i have to go back to step 16 to paste but still the screen is not "centered" on the pattern
-so again up, then down to center it.(several times if further on the pattern).

i feel this quite painfull to do for a so simple thing.

i suggest this:
Holding shift and pressing arrows while marking would jump to the last row or column of the screen.
so the same action would become:

-i mark and i hold shift
-i press right arrow, the all row is selected
-i press down arrow, the selection expand until last step of the actual screen.
-i copy
-i press down to jump to the next 16 steps
-ready to paste.

Then to paste, if i want to copy and paste the first step of a pattern to all the steps, i can use shift+down+copy, but still i gonna have to press "copy" 63 times?
 Why not to just hold copy and to have a key repeat functions like with the arrows?

Then some others things i find a bit disturbing but those are the most for me i think (i will stop here for now  )

[XORadmin]

OK i see, its about how the random command is designed (and generally that the commands act like knobs, i understand the design choice but i think i would prefer them to be instant and go back to a steady value on next steps).

Of course, most FX work like this, else it would be very frustrating if you would have to fill in 64 times that the probability should be on 52% or anything like that. And that for one pattern and it would completely fill the FX lines and doesn't leave room for other things.
The random command indeed is currently still dumb and only fills in a random value within the FX range. This needs and will be improved of course.

Still it would be nice to have some ways of sligthly change the envelopes values over time, i use this a lot to get some more organic patterns quickly. (also i can see a big interest in fm synthesis with this).

They will be more possibilities and also here the FX overrule for FX might help with automators.  It can already be used to override FX parameters, but also here within the current range regardless of the sub-function.

Yes i understand it would be too much, maybe then just for attack and decay of envelope 1 and 2?
(also this would open up a lot fm synthesis possibilities)

I'm not a friend of only a few parameters. Someone else want just use the offset or the sustain...... The fact that all envelope parameters can be changed on every step or in the tables is already much much more than most of the real envelope modules can do. And you can still build up your organic movement of the decay by using the fx values in the steps you want to .

First, i dont get why "ok" (or shift) wont insert a note by itself in the pattern screen on a empty step, basicaly it means we need a key combo every time we want to insert a note.

SHIFT is already used for multiple functions, changing to screens, starting, stoping, mute/soloing and more...it would be disturbing if it always would enter a note
Same for OK. In this special case it is used to preview the note or in combination with the cursor keys to play preview through the rows.
I don't see any advantage on just adding a note. You want to change the note value always and would always need a combo key for this. The good part of it is that it is always the same through the sequencer, so you know always how to increment/decrement.

-I mark
-i press right arrow until the last column of the screen. 
-i press "down" 
-But then i end up in the step 16 and the selection is now 17 steps long
-so i press up arrow to make the selection one step shorter 
-i copy, but then it end up being the step 15 on top of the screen
-so i have to go back to step 16 to paste but still the screen is not "centered" on the pattern
-so again up, then down to center it.(several times if further on the pattern).

Hmm, i see that the down key is probably not the best one to use here since it goes 16 steps further (to the next part of the screen in your case).
But then if you copy, it pastes where you are with the cursor. And of course if you are on step 15 then it inserts there.
I don't know and i am not sure if a different kind of screen centering would be any benefit. You still would have to navigate to the positions that you want to edit.

-i mark and i hold shift
-i press right arrow, the all row is selected
-i press down arrow, the selection expand until last step of the actual screen.
-i copy
-i press down to jump to the next 16 steps
-ready to paste.

I think that could be valid if it was only for the current visible screen. They are also other requests which involve the SHIFT function to change the begin part of the marking and without SHIFT like now the end part of the marking. Maybe this can get an own discussion thread. Not really high prio though as you can currently do everything and it isn't a real pain. The whole mark/copy/paste thing can never be perfect and i guess if other approaches would be a real improvement.

Then to paste, if i want to copy and paste the first step of a pattern to all the steps, i can use shift+down+copy, but still i gonna have to press "copy" 63 times?
Why not to just hold copy and to have a key repeat functions like with the arrows?

I actually paste 3 times, then mark this again and paste....needs less than 63 repeats ;-)  But this aside, a key repeat for the copy-insert would help here.
They are only key repeats with the arrows currently.


Please keep in mind that they are only very little keys availabe for everything and that i try to avoid double triple quadruple functions per key or combos.
Some things might be annoying in the first place, but thats probably the case with all more complex systems (well, maybe not with the ones with many more buttons). You got to get used to it.
It's for sure not perfect and can always be improved.

[Bleep bleep]

Of course, most FX work like this, else it would be very frustrating if you would have to fill in 64 times that the probability should be on 52% or anything like that. And that for one pattern and it would completely fill the FX lines and doesn't leave room for other things.

I agree its an interesting approach (but i still not completly get the interest),it seems to free some lines, but im not really shure at the end, i think it depend of the context.

for example if we want probability on only few notes with the current system, we need three commands to achieve this per note and this gonna eat a lot of lines as well...

Im thinking now that it would be great to have the option to decide per tracks if the current values are overwritten by the fx or not.
(and a command to set this maybe?)

so we could set current value probability from the current value screen to 52% and then put an effect on one note for 100% probability
and only this note would be affected by the effect.

The random command indeed is currently still dumb and only fills in a random value within the FX range. This needs and will be improved of course. 

Ok good to know, i think random per step get really usefull once we can set a range for it in some way, so its not completely random.
but i see the problem here, if we use random on different parameters how to set different ranges for every parameters then... 

They will be more possibilities and also here the FX overrule for FX might help with automators.  It can already be used to override FX parameters, but also here within the current range regardless of the sub-function.

Oh thanks i missed this, i was not aware it was possible to do this! So im experimenting now and i think i can achieve what i want to do with the decay this way, at the cost of one fx column but still very cool!

I'm not a friend of only a few parameters. Someone else want just use the offset or the sustain...... The fact that all envelope parameters can be changed on every step or in the tables is already much much more than most of the real envelope modules can do. And you can still build up your organic movement of the decay by using the fx values in the steps you want to .

Yes i can understand, i think fx overrule with automator might do the trick already.

SHIFT is already used for multiple functions, changing to screens, starting, stoping, mute/soloing and more...it would be disturbing if it always would enter a note
Same for OK. In this special case it is used to preview the note or in combination with the cursor keys to play preview through the rows.
I don't see any advantage on just adding a note. You want to change the note value always and would always need a combo key for this. The good part of it is that it is always the same through the sequencer, so you know always how to increment/decrement.

Well yes, usually we might enter different note most of the time (but not always) i just felt it strange that nothing happens when we press "ok" on empty step as if we do this we want to add a note here for shure. But i get the point and this is just something to get use of it, good as it is.

Hmm, i see that the down key is probably not the best one to use here since it goes 16 steps further (to the next part of the screen in your case).
But then if you copy, it pastes where you are with the cursor. And of course if you are on step 15 then it inserts there.
I don't know and i am not sure if a different kind of screen centering would be any benefit. You still would have to navigate to the positions that you want to edit.

Ok my bad here, actually its working nicely, it was just a bit counterintuitive to copy 17 steps but then its no issue doing this until the 17th step is empty.
-mark
-right arrow until where we need
-down key
-copy
-paste

just perfect!
i should have try this harder!

I think that could be valid if it was only for the current visible screen. They are also other requests which involve the SHIFT function to change the begin part of the marking and without SHIFT like now the end part of the marking. Maybe this can get an own discussion thread. Not really high prio though as you can currently do everything and it isn't a real pain. The whole mark/copy/paste thing can never be perfect and i guess if other approaches would be a real improvement.

Ok yes this is to think about(i meant it to be just for the visible screen, but including hidden fx lines...)
As you say its a minor improvement, now that i understood better the way to copy past 16 steps.

Actually i think the best for shift while marking would be to change the values of what is marked.
(now it seems not possible for example to change the average volume of an audio pattern trough the volume column, only step by step)

I actually paste 3 times, then mark this again and paste....needs less than 63 repeats ;-)  But this aside, a key repeat for the copy-insert would help here.
They are only key repeats with the arrows currently.

Well yes i know that is the way to do it now 
But still involve quite a lot of moves and the key repeat would be very welcome here!

Please keep in mind that they are only very little keys availabe for everything and that i try to avoid double triple quadruple functions per key or combos.
Some things might be annoying in the first place, but thats probably the case with all more complex systems (well, maybe not with the ones with many more buttons). You got to get used to it.
It's for sure not perfect and can always be improved.

Yes i get this, im coming from years of LSDJ to here (that i think is near perfection for editing with only 4 buttons!) 
But i understand you try to avoid key combos and its probably a good choice!
I have to get more familiar with the NerdSeq for shure.
Thank you for your answers (and in general for the time you spend for us) 
I learned some usefull things here!

---

[Bleep bleep]

So, to come back to the subject, im getting some really interesting results with the automators and fx overulles.

Offset to 120 and amp to 20 with the random wave is working well for fast percussive sounds.
Also interesting to modulate the attack peak with a lower offset or to increase the range as it can change either attack peak or decay.

It can seems tricky at first to get the good values but i found a cool little trick, looking at the envelope screen dont show the updating values at first but if you hold the up arrow you can see the changes in real time

Very cool feature the fx overrule, i gonna use this a lot!

[XORadmin]

I agree its an interesting approach (but i still not completly get the interest),it seems to free some lines, but im not really shure at the end, i think it depend of the context.

for example if we want probability on only few notes with the current system, we need three commands to achieve this per note and this gonna eat a lot of lines as well...

Im thinking now that it would be great to have the option to decide per tracks if the current values are overwritten by the fx or not.
(and a command to set this maybe?)

so we could set current value probability from the current value screen to 52% and then put an effect on one note for 100% probability
and only this note would be affected by the effect.

It doesn't really make sense to do it like this, trust me.
You need only 2 filled in FX values if you for example want to have 10 steps with probability on (or glide or whatever). Else you would need 10 steps with this filled in. And what is the original value anyway? And what about values that yo uwant to keep continuous, you really don't want every step filled in with a value just to keep it. And you already lost if you use more than 4 FX values, while with the current implementation you are still able to set them from the sequence. And i could add many more examples like all possibilities to additionally modulate the same values from other sources (other tracks, automators etc...)
Trust me, the use of the 'knob' function is the best solution.

Ok good to know, i think random per step get really usefull once we can set a range for it in some way, so its not completely random.
but i see the problem here, if we use random on different parameters how to set different ranges for every parameters then...

Of course...they are more threads here in the forum about it (if you have time, read through it. It will give you also many answers) . I will go for the best solution which covers the most possible.

Oh thanks i missed this, i was not aware it was possible to do this! So im experimenting now and i think i can achieve what i want to do with the decay this way, at the cost of one fx column but still very cool!

I am not sure if it works with the envelope functions as it still doesn't look what additional functionality the FX parameters have.
Just for your info, in the begin all FX functions had a minimum and maximum value but no additional functions. But to avoid too many FX functions (which didn't work out already) i used combined FX like with the envelopes so you can change the envelope settings from one FX only. Else it would have been like 6 different FX functions for just one envelope already. Too much to browse through it and impossible with flexible FX anyway (like the automator FX which can have different content depending on how the slots are defined).

Well yes, usually we might enter different note most of the time (but not always) i just felt it strange that nothing happens when we press "ok" on empty step as if we do this we want to add a note here for shure. But i get the point and this is just something to get use of it, good as it is.

But OK is already used for a more important function: Prelisten
Much more interresting than a function you can already do anyway.

Ok yes this is to think about(i meant it to be just for the visible screen, but including hidden fx lines...)
As you say its a minor improvement, now that i understood better the way to copy past 16 steps.
Actually i think the best for shift while marking would be to change the values of what is marked.
(now it seems not possible for example to change the average volume of an audio pattern trough the volume column, only step by step)

That could be an idea indeed. It would be in the way for the requested function that with shift the start position of the mark could change though. But i see the benefit of marking like notes and transpose them all (this you can do of course with the marked values in the nerd menu, but that would directly be the easier way for all kind of marked values (including it's destructive possibility ;-)  )

Yes i get this, im coming from years of LSDJ to here (that i think is near perfection for editing with only 4 buttons!) 
But i understand you try to avoid key combos and its probably a good choice!
I have to get more familiar with the NerdSeq for shure.
Thank you for your answers (and in general for the time you spend for us) 
I learned some usefull things here!

LSDJ user since nearly 20 years actually and i know all about it. But one important thing i really wanted to avoid (and that from my experience of giving loads of LSDJ workshops) like press 3 keys in an order to do something. Also i wanted to have one screen per button (thats not working anymore because I now have more screens than 3 years ago) instread of navigating between screens. Even though it is named NerdSEQ and with all it's nerdy functions, it is still a serious sequencer and all the neat combos is great for gamers but in my opinion not for the regular musician. The main access should be as easy as possible with only little knowledge. And on demand you can dive in much much deeper which opens new worlds of course.
Also i got rid of the chain screen since this was always the highest barrier of understanding for people. Thats also the difference in browsing through 64 steps or 16 steps in the pattern screen...

In case you didn't know, i developed the first real Midi interface for LSDJ (and Nanoloop) called LSDJMC2, long before Arduinoboy (which I also helped building up in the begin) and also for LPGT. So i know exactly what I'm talking about :-)

[Bleep bleep]

It doesn't really make sense to do it like this, trust me.

Ok i trust you

But i still think in some cases we would have interest not to overwrite the values of the current values screen.
To choose wich of the 4 fx column overwrite or not  for every track would be the best...

I am not sure if it works with the envelope functions as it still doesn't look what additional functionality the FX parameters have.

It seems to work quite good if it is set to the good range, to affect only the parameters we want
(but no way to have two automators each on different parameters).

That could be an idea indeed. It would be in the way for the requested function that with shift the start position of the mark could change though. But i see the benefit of marking like notes and transpose them all (this you can do of course with the marked values in the nerd menu, but that would directly be the easier way for all kind of marked values (including it's destructive possibility ;-)  )

In my opinion this would be better, we can start marking from somewhere else if needed, but curently its not possible to increment or decrement a column that have different values in each steps.(appart from notes)
Also if find it more logical as this is the same use for shift while not marking.

LSDJ user since nearly 20 years actually and i know all about it.

Nice! 
One more question, do you plan to add something like the B command for the tables in LSDJ? (maybe hop)

To have probability to jump to a specific row allow very nice complex tables.

So we can create some kind of islands inside the tables with a probability to jump to the next one.

Also, (sorry last one, i dont want to bother you more!) do you plan one more effect column in the tables?(independent from the other one would be awesome).

In case you didn't know, i developed the first real Midi interface for LSDJ (and Nanoloop) called LSDJMC2, long before Arduinoboy (which I also helped building up in the begin) and also for LPGT. So i know exactly what I'm talking about :-)

Great, i didn't know!
So you are more than familiar with LSDJ ! 

All my respect and thanks again  

[XORadmin]

You might to try it with V1.23A now. The envelope retriggering is fixed there.

[Bleep bleep]

Thanks, i got to try it now.

Just to come back to this:

Of course, most FX work like this, else it would be very frustrating if you would have to fill in 64 times that the probability should be on 52% or anything like that. And that for one pattern and it would completely fill the FX lines and doesn't leave room for other things.

Still i wish an option to have fx not overwriting the current values, and we could still use patches to set general continuous values.
In my case, most often i want probability and fx on only few notes per patterns and i find it frustrating to put three commands just for one change... 

Im curious to have opinion of other users about it.

Anyway i need to spend time still to get use of the NerdSeq, also for the tables the RU hop seems interesting feature, i have to play with it more to get the full possibilities.

Thanks for your work!